all 86 comments

[–]Thalesian 335 points336 points  (31 children)

I am not a fan of Meta in general, but their open source policy is incredibly progressive and a net benefit to everyone.

[–]inno7 35 points36 points  (11 children)

While I appreciate their open source contributions, the last few years have made me sceptic of tech companies — I always think “What’s the catch?”

[–]geeky_username 69 points70 points  (1 child)

The catch is that they have a head start. They start with the best pytorch devs, and they can acquire others that get just as good.

One thing Meta proves, for better or for worse, is that the tools are just tools. They are not the secret sauce that makes you successful. What you do with them is what makes you successful.

We all have access to paint brushes and paint, but we aren't Davinci or Picasso

These other companies are holding onto proprietary tech like gollum holds onto his ring

[–]ColdCure23 88 points89 points  (2 children)

The catch seems to be that open sourcing LLMs sabotages their competitor's product value. If you can do your job with a small-ish open source LLM, why would you pay the competitors that block its access behind a paid API?

[–]Charuru 13 points14 points  (0 children)

That's not a catch, that's a good thing.

[–]gatdarntootin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Llama can’t be used for commercial purposes tho, so not sure this argument applies here.

[–]Yweain 28 points29 points  (0 children)

There is no catch. If you open source a tool and it becomes industry standard you can now hire people who are already used to your tech stack at least partially and it also helps to attract developers (because they perceive your company better)

[–]azriel777 9 points10 points  (1 child)

The catch is to prevent openAI from becoming an AI monopoly.

[–]TheManni1000 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"open" ai

[–]iskaandismet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

On PyTorch: It’s generally been very valuable for us to provide that because now all of the best developers across the industry are using tools that we’re also using internally.

[–]DReicht 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I kept wondering this too.

I think there’s an important opportunity to help create an open ecosystem. If we can help be a part of this, then much of the industry will standardize on using these open tools and help improve them further. So this will make it easier for other companies to integrate with our products and platforms as we enable more integrations, and that will help our products stay at the leading edge as well.

[–]WildlifePhysics 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Agreed, this is a policy that helps benefit everyone.

[–]CulturedNiichan 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Same. Not a fan, but I think they've done a great thing for humanity.

I not only see it as keeping it not exclusively large corporation.

What I fear the most is governments' attempts to ban or restrict AI. If the results of AI research and training are kept as closely guarded secrets by large companies, it's extremely easy to control.

But if you make AI models publicly available and even nobody me has his HDD full of Alpaca, Vicuna, dozens of Stable Diffusion models, and if more people get in the game of releasing trained models openly, there's no stopping AI. And this means that the companies that invest heavily on AI won't be at risk of losing their investment, since they will find commercial uses for their AI, by renting their infrastructure, know-how, probably fine-tuning models for other corporations... so basically it's a win-win situation.

You preemptively release models so banning AI is no longer feasible, people then go around finetuning them and doing all kinds of crazy stuff you can benefit too, plus the investment will still make money eventually.

[–]mf_tarzan -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Smol brain not a fan blanket statement. Why cuz zuck is awkward?

[–]CulturedNiichan -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Because smol brain people don't like big corporation and have little trust of rich people. That's all. But big brain cannot understand. Big brain too big not fit in skull. Big brain hurts because big brain bursts out of skull. Big brain likes rich corporation. Big brain so big the rich corporation give money to big brain to remain in skull. Big brain saved by big rich corporation alien. Big brain good.

[–]mf_tarzan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow this hurt to read

[–]Nikaramu 11 points12 points  (3 children)

So was open ai till they found out some good money making things.

[–]noiseinvacuum[S] 35 points36 points  (1 child)

I see what you’re trying to say. The only reason I find this compelling is because the business case makes sense. OpenAI had to move quickly to making a product and protecting it. Meta considers the fundamental model as tool that they will build products on top of. And there’s a decade long history of Meta sharing and maintaining top tier open source projects, think of React, PyTorch, GraphQL, etc.

[–]Nikaramu 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Only time will tell. Let just hope that they’ll keep this views at critical moments

[–]fasttosmile 7 points8 points  (0 children)

??? openai never even came close to the level of tooling and research meta provides for free.

[–]BeneficialEngineer32 0 points1 point  (7 children)

The problem is that companies like Apple are going to benefit from this and not meta.

[–]noiseinvacuum[S] 10 points11 points  (6 children)

To be honest, I don’t think any company whose research is as closed as Apple will succeed in a fast moving field like AI for 2 reasons.

  1. Publishing papers and building reputation is a major motivator for the researchers. Not being able to do that is very unlikely to attract top talent.
  2. Not contributing back to open source also slows you down in the long run even if you use open source tools as a starting point. With time your fork of open source diverts from the actual open source project and it becomes more and more expensive to merge the innovations that OS community makes.

Siri being in a pathetic state compared to its competitors makes me doubt Apple’s ability to beat competition in AI products.

What they can and should do, imo, is to work on hardware accelerators in iPhone and Macs that can run these larger models locally. That’ll be a true game changer and good use of their resources.

[–]auroradreamSUCK 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What they can and should do, imo, is to work on hardware accelerators in iPhone and Macs that can run these larger models locally. That’ll be a true game changer and good use of their resources.

yes

[–]BeneficialEngineer32 1 point2 points  (2 children)

They copy paste all the time. What usually happens is others innovate and apple comes and it and markets it better. Attracting key talent is not the objective for apple as the product that they sell is not a commodity(yet) and is also not dependent on the resources(ML engineers, HW engineers etc). Its a company extremely reliant on supply chain and distribution along with processes. They use those to generate value.
Meta/Google open sourcing their product will in turn only benefit Apple as they will copy paste code and then get it working with their macs and iPhone and then take a cut for doing it.

[–]vintage2019 1 point2 points  (0 children)

News flash: all tech companies “copy paste” all the time. Otherwise they’d be suffering from the “not invented here” syndrome.

[–]Thalesian -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I agree. Apple’s AI cases however are less cutting edge but rather comprehensive solutions to mundane problems that improve user experience. Because they are ultimately a manufacturer it is less important for them to be an AI leader. However inasmuch as Siri is important to their future plans, they will have to adopt LLMs at some point.

If I had to guess, they will develop an LLM quality control that surpasses others. They will be clearly behind the pack and a fair bit lighter on generalizability, but they also won’t have the hallucination* problem other models have.

*hallucination appears to be the accepted nomenclature, but it is the opposition of what is happening. Rather than a creative force, it is simply a limited neural network crafting a “what should be true” rationalization to connect the dots.

[–]noiseinvacuum[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Every LLM is going to have hallucination problem. It’s inherent due to how they are trained and what they are. So no, Apple’s LLM is not going to fix that.

But I agree on the larger point, they are playing a different game.l and their iPhone most is so strong that they don’t need to compete on same playing field with others.

[–]021AIGuy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I really wonder why they chose that path...

[–]Carrasco_Santo 108 points109 points  (16 children)

I've made fun of Meta several times, but I admit that they have collaborated a lot with the open source community.

[–]visarga 66 points67 points  (9 children)

actually Meta is pretty well regarded in this sub, we are all aware of PyTorch and LLaMA

[–]fjodpod 38 points39 points  (8 children)

Also don't forget faiss. Amazing tool!

[–]zaptrem 33 points34 points  (5 children)

And React!

[–]noiseinvacuum[S] 13 points14 points  (4 children)

And GraphQL.

[–]Tystros 7 points8 points  (2 children)

and LZ4

[–]bassoway 4 points5 points  (1 child)

and FB

[–]InterestingFinish932 8 points9 points  (0 children)

no, not that one

[–]trimorphic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

GraphQL is such an fing nightmare.

[–]PM_ME_YOUR_PROFANITY 14 points15 points  (0 children)

And more recently, SAM. Both the dataset and models are even open for commercial use.

[–]haukzi 4 points5 points  (0 children)

and fairseq, which is also often forked by microsoft research for their papers too

[–]StellaAthenaResearcher 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Eh, it’s hit or miss. In the LLM world, it’s mostly misses. They don’t collaborate with external open source LLM researchers, they don’t release essential components of their code even to researchers, and they don’t actually release their LLMs under an open source license. They’re a lot more open than OpenAI or Google, but there’s still a lot of problems with the way that they operate.

In the past week I’ve spent about 20 hours trying and failing to replicate the evaluation numbers from the LLaMA paper. It turns out that they use custom, undisclosed prompts to evaluate their models. This makes their comparisons to other models useless btw, as if you change the prompt you can’t compare the numbers anymore.

Another example is the code they released with LLaMA. It can’t train models and isn’t compatible with any of the open source ecosystem. Open source devs had to go and write custom integrations to use the models in existing pipelines. The code they did release doesn’t do anything useful or interesting either.

[–]nicholsz 12 points13 points  (0 children)

IME there's a big cultural divide between researchers and engineers, still.

Engineers working on open source platform infrastructure treat the code seriously, as the code itself is the publication. They can become well-known in industry, get new job offers, consulting / speaking opportunities etc if they're maintaining a well-regarded OSS system. That's why PyTorch and React are so good and well-maintained.

Researchers treat the publication as the publication, because it is. Highly-cited publications is how they get those job offers and speaking opportunities. That's the culture in academia. Research code is treated more like materials and methods -- you supply them when convenient because it's polite, not because it's the main work product.

[–]Carrasco_Santo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Regarding this, there is no denying it, I hope they are more open, but there are several other things that they released and today are very useful tools like Pytorch.

[–]Silphendio 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Meta is better than OpenAI for sure, but Google gave us FLAN-T5, one of the best true open source LLMs we have right now.

[–]MootVerick 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Well I do remember several Meta researchers saying they would be more open but there is a risk of lawsuits for open sourcing models.

[–]noiseinvacuum[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Right and I think that’s what Zuckerberg means when he says that they’re figuring out ways to be more open. Legal challenges for a company that is hated as much as Meta by the mainstream media and FTC is no joke.

[–]xx14Zackxx 45 points46 points  (4 children)

When Open AI refused to publish the parameter counts for GPT4, I saw that as a big hit against the idea that them keeping this info in house had anything to do with safety. If Safety is a concern, it is absolutely relevant how large the model is, even if you tell us nothing else about its structure or the tricks to train it. Specifically because if the model is say only marginally smaller than GPT3.5, then that means the AI arms race is probably accessible to a lot more players, than if, say GPT4 required 1 trillion parameters.

Open AI has taken the issue of AI safety, which they claim (and I agree) is super important, and made it an in house research operation. RLHF was initially proposed by an Open AI researcher (Paul Christiano) as a method for Aligning AI as part of Open AI's safety team. And yet, in their biggest contribution to actually productive AI safety research, we know nothing of the mechanics. We don't know how big large value network was, we don't know how long it took to train, we don't know how well it scaled, we don't know the performance hit to the model before RLHF or after RLHF. What we do know we only got because an inhouse microsoft team got access to the model because MSFT is a big investor. That's silly for a company that claims to be putting safety first.

I do worry about 'building out an ecosystem' given the potential dangers of AI, but innately and in its misuse. However, if Open AI being closed off has taught me anything, it's that keeping these things in house only serves to fuel an arms race where we have no idea what people are working on, how it works, or how dangerous it might be.

I do hope META does take safety seriously, but you can do both! You can talk about safety, and still publish your work, or even release the models. Talk about what you learned so we can understand these models and make them safely! I find that more encouraging than Open AI keeping all their safety research in the dark, while claiming to care about it so much.

[–]visarga 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Maybe counting weights is more complicated, meaning MoE.

[–]PM_ME_YOUR_PROFANITY 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What is MoE in this context?

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]PM_ME_YOUR_PROFANITY 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Hahah thank you. I thought of doing this myself but I'm on my phone and took the lazy way. Appreciate it!

    [–]wind_dude 119 points120 points  (1 child)

    Meta does some amazing open source work.

    [–]noiseinvacuum[S] 19 points20 points  (4 children)

    Here's the Youtube Video of this specific question:

    Edit: link

    [–]ZestyData 19 points20 points  (1 child)

    bruh

    [–]noiseinvacuum[S] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

    Sorry my bad, forgot to paste the most important part of the comment lol. Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRg-H-k6Vx8&t=2159s&pp=2AHvEJACAQ%3D%3D

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]noiseinvacuum[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I don’t understand this either lol. And the operator always sounds like they sitting in a toilet with microphone taped to lips breathing like Darth Vader.

      [–]PacmanIncarnate 19 points20 points  (2 children)

      I love that they are in this space with this understanding. It really is important that they aren’t trying to support a cloud business with their tools. That has held Google back so much, because they live in constant fear that AI will destroy their ad revenue.

      [–]noiseinvacuum[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      Agreed. This is a fundamental difference in business model that makes this more believable in the long term.

      [–]FruityWelsh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Open Compute really shows this paradigm to me personally. They are the only hyperscaler attempting to share their datacenter infrastructure, and it's because selling cloud compute isn't their business model like AWS, GCP, or Azure is.

      [–]Oswald_Hydrabot 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      This is brilliantly stated and refreshing to read. I think we all need to take a step back from doomsday sensationalism and look at the fact we have all the tools we need to have an incredibly bright future.

      [–]louislinaris 11 points12 points  (3 children)

      LeCun posted on LinkedIn recently about the number of LLMs they've open sourced

      [–]visarga 5 points6 points  (2 children)

      Has LeCun changed a little? It seems he is more active than ever with the AI scare/anti-scare debate.

      [–]MachinaDoctrina 22 points23 points  (0 children)

      I think he has realised his role as an influential voice of reason around all the hyperbole, I also noticed lately he's been more active but I think that's to counteract other bad actors like Musk etc. inflating the LLMs capabilities to the laymen.

      [–]new_name_who_dis_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I don't follow him religiously so maybe from the perspective of a short context window he has started talking about this more. But he's always talked about how you shouldn't be scared of AI -- it's not a new position for him.

      [–]TheManni1000 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      meta being more open then "open" ai

      [–]graphicteadatasci 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      If a particular tool isn't a part of your moat then there isn't really an argument for keeping it secret, is there?

      [–]noiseinvacuum[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I think you also need to be super confident in your product development and distribution capabilities. I can see how a slow moving company can think that open sourcing tools they develop internally could be used by competitors to launch better products faster than you if you give them the tools.

      The fact that Zuckerberg has controlling shares in Meta also helps with this. I’m sure For a regular CEO it won’t be easy to convince the board members and major investors that they’re going to open source a key part of tech stack and costed them 100s of millions of dollars.

      [–]raymmm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Ironically it's "open.ai" that is keeping their models proprietary. They should be forced to change their company name to avoid confusion.

      [–]Scarlettt_Moon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Can't agree more. "The biggest risk from AI, in my opinion, is not the doomsday scenarios that intuitively come to mind but rather that the most powerful AI systems will only be accessible to the most powerful and resourceful corporations."

      Not a fan of Meta, but open source in the field of AI is really important.

      [–]Scarlettt_Moon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Can't agree more. "The biggest risk from AI, in my opinion, is not the doomsday scenarios that intuitively come to mind but rather that the most powerful AI systems will only be accessible to the most powerful and resourceful corporations."

      Not a fan of Meta, but open source in the field of AI is really important.

      [–]colabDog 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      Can I just say - Facebook open sourcing PyTorch but not having some way to directly tie it to revenue seems like a major loss for the company and I would hate to see it die if it's no longer maintained by Facebook! As a way to keep the project alive - I personally think it needs some way to make revenue. I'm hoping it partners an infra company like AWS so it sustains as a project for the years to come!

      [–]noiseinvacuum[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

      PyTorch is transferred to the Linux Foundation last year. AMD, AWS, Google Cloud, Meta, Microsoft Azure, and NVIDIA are the founding members. I would recommend reading this blog post, all foundling member mention their motivations for joining the PyTorch foundation as founding members.

      https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/press-release/meta-transitions-pytorch-to-the-linux-foundation

      [–]_Foxtrot_ comment score below threshold-30 points-29 points  (0 children)

      How can anyone be optimistic on anything this life-sized robot says? We're the product, not AI. Mark's trying to develop his long lost brother because he believes he can use it to create additional monetization streams for you, the people, the product.

      [–]nomadiclizardStudent comment score below threshold-17 points-16 points  (2 children)

      Give facebook a supercomputer large enough and they will have a real time generated holodeck style text -> 3D metaverse with the ability to build it and the contents just by describing them or letting a creative LLM hallucinate the world and that'll be awesome for those devs but how does that get pushed a consumer-level technology endpoint?

      [–]noiseinvacuum[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

      Once the fundamental models are open sourced then everyone can build consumer products on top of those. Training these models takes 10s of millions of dollars, GPT-4 reportedly took $40M, that individual and smaller companies simply can’t afford. Just look at what LLaMa has done in just a couple of months and it’s licensing doesn’t allow commercial use. From his statements it looks like they’re moving towards even more open source strategy.

      [–]noiseinvacuum[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      And they have the world’s largest AI super cluster already iirc.

      [–][deleted] comment score below threshold-36 points-35 points  (2 children)

      This is absolutely the worst timeline

      [–]jchi6570 9 points10 points  (1 child)

      Can you elaborate ?

      [–]purplebrown_updown -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

      Yeah they open source their ML code cause they sell every piece of personal data on individuals otherwise. Every third FB post is an ad. Good for their business I guess but don’t pretend like their doing good.

      [–]evanthebouncy 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      They're doing it because they're not the leader. By open source they're dragging everything down. This is good for the community, but let's be clear here if Meta is winning right now they'd be all hush hush too.

      [–]noiseinvacuum[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      No one is saying that they are releasing everything they have, can’t expect that from any corporation. The fact that they released LLaMa and saw the success and momentum is a very good sign. Plus it’s clear from the statements in earnings call that they “desire to be more open” which means the have models that are not shared to the outside world yet.